Jounalist Heather Gray, Discusses 2020 Black History Month Theme: African Americans and the Vote

VERNON OAKES: Good morning everybody. This is Vernon Oakes. Welcome to Everything Co-op on this beautiful Thursday morning. And we have Heather Gray on the line with us this morning. She is an activist, a journalist, and a media specialist. Good morning, Heather.

HEATHER GRAY: Good morning to you. Thank you.

VERNON OAKES: Thank you for being on and taking time out of your busy schedule to be with us. So, I just want to get started by just asking you, where did you grow up and what kind of education did you get?

HEATHER GRAY: That’s a broad question, but okay, so originally I’m from Canada, from Western Canada. And my father brought us down to Atlanta, Georgia in the 1950s, actually. So, I was raised in Atlanta, Georgia, in the South. So, that’s the start. Where do I go from there? My education, I have an undergraduate degree in anthropology, and a master’s degree in sociology. And I got that from Emory University here in Atlanta, and also Georgia State University. So, that’s my education. But, that was the academic education. My real education was living in the south and learning more about Jim Crow, because I was raised in the Jim Crow era, right, in Atlanta, Georgia. So, that preoccupied me altogether as a young, white girl, right.

HEATHER GRAY: And so, as far as the Civil Rights Movement was concerned, that I ultimately would get involved in, my first day in the United States in the 1950s, I woke up on the Emory University campus — it was my first day in the US — I looked out the window and I saw this exquisitely beautiful Black woman. She was standing in the corner of the road, just out the window when I was looking out the window from the alumni building where we stayed in the Emory campus. And she was wearing these bright, beautiful clothes, she walked with such grace. And I thought oh my goodness. And growing up in Western Canada as a child I never saw anybody Black. This was the first time I ever saw anyone Black, right. And she is what people refer to as a burning bush. She was my burning bush. She laid the groundwork for my life altogether, because I realized that Black folks were treated differently in Atlanta. I thought what on Earth is happening here? And so, as a child I began to explore all the various aspects of Jim Crow, trying to figure this crazy thing out.

VERNON OAKES: Well, before you go any further, so, your first day, you’re at Emory. So, was your father or mother working at the campus?

HEATHER GRAY: My father was teaching at Emory. He was going to teach at Emory. He was in the dental school. He was a dentist.

VERNON OAKES: Okay, so he’s a dentist. They come out of Canada, Western Canada. And what city is that?

HEATHER GRAY: Okay, so we’re from Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta. And let me just tell you, Vernon, my father, yes, he was a dentist. He graduated from the University of Alberta in dentistry. But in the 1930s he worked in the Arctic Ocean actually. And so, he was working on a barge as a dentist, and treating Eskimos and Native Canadians. And you know, on the barge there was no electricity, so he was pumping, you know, with his foot to get the drill to work. And so, he realized altogether, with that experience and other experiences that the drills need to be improved upon. And so, he thought if he came to the United States he might be able to get some resources to do that research, which he did. Actually, my father is known as the father of the high speed drill. He developed it in the 1950s. He tried all these different experiments and stuff, and came up with the drill.

HEATHER GRAY: So yeah, he’s known as the father of the high speed drill. In the 1950s he was traveling all over the US trying to encourage dentists to use this higher speed drill.

VERNON OAKES: I cannot even imagine sitting in the dental chair, and the dentist is pumping his foot on the — to make the drill go, and then drilling in my teeth and having to keep everything together. Yeah, that’s a picture I don’t even really want to get into. But, you’re in the 1950s, you’re at Emory, and you look out and see this beautiful Black woman with all of these gorgeous colors of clothes, walking with grace. And I guess from that you’re asking the question, because you’ve never seen Blacks in Alberta — so, is it who is this and how they operate? And then you learn about Jim Crow.

HEATHER GRAY: Yes, exactly, exactly. So, there interesting thing is later on, too, you know, as I began to explore all of this, and I was trying to figure out everything when I was in the 10th grade — it’s interesting this dialogue that we’re now having with Bernie Sanders, and so forth, socialism versus capitalism, right. In the 10th grade I was doing a history assignment — and I remember to this day, also — sitting in the library, the sun was coming through the window, and in the Encyclopedia Britannica I discovered Karl Marx. Now, Marx, at my age of sixteen, told me that people are treated [indistinct] for profit. And everything fell into place for me at that point as well.

HEATHER GRAY: So, those were two critical moments in my growing up years. And then I started looking more at economic systems, which of course will lead us to the discussion of [SOUNDS LIKE: poverty] [indistinct] today. But, those were seminal moments in my growing up at the age of sixteen. And I wrote a 50 page paper on this concept. I’m sure I did a terrible job, Vernon, I wouldn’t know what I was doing. And later on I saw my teacher, actually, who was not that much older than me. I saw him not too long ago, actually, Robert Morgan was his name. I said, Mr. Morgan, do you remember that paper I wrote when I was sixteen? Oh yes, Heather, I remember.

VERNON OAKES: He did today? Oh my god. Okay, so it had an impact on him to be able to remember that.

HEATHER GRAY: It’s probably because I did a terrible job on it.

VERNON OAKES: Oh, I’m probably sure it wasn’t that. So, I gotta go back though, to the study of anthropology. I hear about this, and I happen to look it up, like, what do you really study when you study anthropology? So, you’ve got a Black woman that influenced you, grace and beauty. And then Karl Marx to begin to get an understanding of capitalism and profit. So, what did you study in anthropology?

HEATHER GRAY: Well, in anthropology, you know, of course my most memorable experiences were reading Margaret Mead. But, you know, you study different cultures, and you study the differences between cultures. It was just really so incredibly instructive for me. Because, okay, so yes, born in Canada, then coming here, but I was interested in other cultures as well. and I became more interested of course, through Jim Crow, a better understanding of the politics in countries. So, cultures, and politics, and so forth, you know, were all of a sudden intriguing to me. So, I didn’t know where else to go with that, but–

VERNON OAKES: Okay, no, I got the study of humans, human behavior and societies in the past and present. So, you’re studying these different cultures, what does it mean to be human, and how humans interact, and how these different cultures set up. And that then took you to the study of sociology. And I just wanted to get into this a little bit more, because I’ve heard about these degrees, but I really did not understand them. I was math and chemistry, so I didn’t get into much of any of this in undergrad. And then a master’s in mathematics. None of this. But, I was in a doctoral program, and I got out with a master’s of math, because I wanted to understand about people, and we didn’t do that in math.

VERNON OAKES: And then eventually I got an MBA, which with organizational behavior and theory I got into beginning to look at how organizations work. But not from an anthropological standpoint of who are humans and how have we operated in the past and in the present? And then you go into sociology, which is the study of social life, social change and the social causes and consequences of human behavior. So, what’s the consequences of anthropology. All right, so does that sort of fit into what you were learning? Or what are the major kinds of things that you get out of that study that set your life pattern?

HEATHER GRAY: Yes, it did set my life pattern. But, you know, my work in sociology, I ended up doing a lot of research for various professors, both at Emory University and Georgia State University. And doing research interviewing immigrants, actually. I ended up doing a number of interviews with folks who had to leave Vietnam during the war [indistinct]. And then also interviewing students. You know, you’d be interested in this, as far as [indistinct] is concerned, what I found is that the Chinese students for example tend to study together. And as I began to learn more about the — because I’ve lived amongst the Chinese. I lived in Singapore for a while, actually.

HEATHER GRAY: So, I learned about Confucius, and the importance of education, Vernon, which was also very instructive for me. Because the Chinese really do value education. And not just for the elite to learn, but everybody to learn. Education should be for everyone, regardless of class, or whatever. And what I discovered is that the Chinese students will study together. And it’s okay if you don’t know something, right. You could — I don’t understand this concept, and that’s okay, everybody accepts that you’re gonna just dialogue amongst themselves as a group. Americans don’t do that. They tend to study on their own, on the whole. So, I do understand now that at some universities, some professors are encouraging group study.

HEATHER GRAY: But, I just wanted to mention that as what was really instructive for me, as I began doing more research. And then I had a remarkable time interviewing a number of the immigrants just generally. It was very instructive in any number of ways to learn the different cultures and how they’re adapting here in the United States, and so forth.

VERNON OAKES: So, as a young child your first day in the US at Emory you see this Black woman and then that starts you to question Jim Crow. So, did you study the Jim Crow era and how it started, and what it was all about in studying anthropology, or sociology?

HEATHER GRAY: No. Well, I didn’t study Jim Crow specifically. Although, I mean, in those classes I was doing that on my own, studying [indistinct]. I will say, though, that learning about the different cultures — particularly, I studied a lot of Margaret Mead’s work. And she came to Emory once and spoke, which was just absolutely wonderful. I so appreciated her work, which helped me to also better understand Jim Crow, I think. I mean, if you’re gonna ask me how to explain that it might take a minute for me to express — I’m not sure that I can do that actually, but-

VERNON OAKES: For me, growing up in Bluefield, West Virginia, and being under Jim Crow, it was just a way that the people in power tried to keep Blacks out of power and in low jobs without education, and not able to vote. They’d just keep people out-

HEATHER GRAY: Absolutely, absolutely.

VERNON OAKES: To me that way, okay, slavery’s gone. Now, how do we keep control? At one point we could tell them what to do, and how to do it, and when to do it, and where to do it, and not have to pay them much. Slavery’s gone, and now folks started voting, and getting Blacks elected. And the people in power said, ah, we don’t want this. So, they incorporated these Jim Crow laws and stuff. Okay, I got that.

HEATHER GRAY: Well, I think that one of the things as far as Jim Crow is concerned, or in white America, and European America on the whole is the desire to control, you know, and so, everything, everyone. That is concerning. And I keep trying to better understand this concept, right.

VERNON OAKES: We’ve got to take a break, I’m sorry, and that’s a great place to break.

HEATHER GRAY: No, go ahead. No problem.

VERNON OAKES: We’re gonna get the music, the weather, and traffic, and we’ll be right back. Please don’t touch that dial.

VERNON OAKES: Information is power. That’s why WOL is a great partner. Although, in the first month in this program, six and a half years ago, the gentleman from Senegal said that it’s not information that’s power, it’s putting that information to action. And so, we are giving you information about cooperatives. And right now we have Heather Gray on the line with us. We talked about anthropology, and sociology, and coming from Canada. And she came from Canada and got introduced into Jim Crow in Georgia, growing up in Georgia. So, you said right before the break, Heather, that the Americans and Europeans have a desire to control not just Blacks through Jim Crow, but everything, has been your experience of this [SOUNDS LIKE: culture].

HEATHER GRAY: I think so, yeah. I mean, you see that through the colonial experience, wherever they are. And yeah, it’s really [SOUNDS LIKE: important] then you have to go into a whole dialogue about European history. One of the reasons as far as [indistinct] development is concerned, Vernon. I’m so appreciative of some of the activities and policies in the Scandinavian area in Europe, and of course, in other parts of Europe as well, at Mondragon in Spain, and so forth. But, I do want to mention, during that break you were talking about also the fellow from Senegal who was talking about the importance of action. And you know, I was exploring also the possibility of going for a PhD, but I realized that all my research, the people with PhDs, I mean, obviously I appreciate people getting more knowledge, and so forth, and getting into various university positions — but, I realized that most people with PhDs, they’ll do a lot of research and they’ll write articles, and they’re not necessarily all that involved in [SOUNDS LIKE: the community].

HEATHER GRAY: And I thought, I don’t want to do that. I wanted to get involved. I wanted to get involved in community activities, and activism, and so forth. So, I didn’t go that route. I didn’t go the PhD route, precisely for that reason, actually.

VERNON OAKES: Action, get into community activity. So, where did you go from getting your degrees, then? What did you do?

HEATHER GRAY: Say that again, I’m sorry.

VERNON OAKES: After you got your degrees, what kinds of actions did you get into, community involvement, community actions?

HEATHER GRAY: Well, so I was [SOUNDS LIKE: looking at] my degrees, and I became involved in — in 1967, for example, from Atlanta — I went up to the ’67 march against the Pentagon. That was remarkable. And I started getting involved with various student activities, and actions, and [SOUNDS LIKE: stuff within] other parts of the community here in Atlanta who were concerned about the war, certainly, but also about Jim Crow policies. I need to say that in 1968, in the early part of the first week of April in 1968, early in that week, I was asked by a friend of mine who was teaching at Spelman College, which is the Black Women’s College here in Atlanta, a part of the Atlanta University Complex. She said, Heather, why don’t you come to this event we’re having this next weekend at Spelman, and spend the night on the Spelman campus? I said, okay, that’s great. I’d love to do that. And then a few days later on April the 4th Martin Luther King was assassinated. And when I woke up on the Emory Campus, Vernon, his body was in state in Sister’s Chapel, which is the chapel on the Spelman campus — a very large chapel — that has two aisles that you go in, that you can walk in one aisle, and then walk out the other — go to the side and then walk out the other.

HEATHER GRAY: And when I woke up on the campus [indistinct] King’s body was in state in Sister’s Chapel. So, I wanted to pay my respect to the great man. And I stood in line with these people as they were walking into the chapel. I was the only white person in line [SOUNDS LIKE: I need to say]. But, all you could hear was the shuffling of feet, and people crying, you know. And I went into the chapel, and his body was in state at the front of the chapel with an open coffin, right. And there were pastors on either side of his coffin. And they were wiping off the top of the coffin. Later on, one of the pastors, who I knew, you know, I said, why were you all doing that? He was one of the pastors by the coffin.

HEATHER GRAY: He said, because as people were walking by the open coffin they were crying, and their tears were cascading on Dr. King’s body. And so, they decided they needed to put glass over the top of his body, of the coffin, right. And so, that’s the metaphor that I’ve used in some of the things I’ve written. What they were doing was wiping away the tears. So, I then participated in the funeral. I mean, I was driving for the student nonviolent coordinating committee to bring in people who were coming in for Dr. King’s funeral. I was driving in my car and with some Atlanta University students. The first person we picked up was Ralph Bunche, who was representing the United Nations. And we thought that Ralph Bunche — it was thought the secretary general of the UN at the time sent Ralph Bunche because Jonathan was sending Hubert Humphrey to the funeral, so he didn’t want to overstep his bounds here, I guess.

HEATHER GRAY: So, he sent Ralph Bunche. And so, Ralph Bunche did not want to go to a white-owned hotel. So, we took him, and he was with his son, actually, to [SOUNDS LIKE: Paschal’s], which is one of the leading Black hotels here in Atlanta at the time. So, then I just wanted to tell you that the next person I picked up for the funeral was Allard Lowenstein, who was the Black attorney in the Civil Rights movement from New York. So, I pick him up and he said, right off the bat, he wanted to visit Mrs. King. So, I went to Dr. King’s and Coretta King’s house, and I stood outside as they went in to visit with Mrs. King, as I was waiting there. Just crowds of people around Mrs. King’s house.

HEATHER GRAY: And as I waited for him to come out of the house Sammy Davis Jr. walked out, and Harry Belafonte walked out. And it was just really something. Then he said to me, when Lowenstein came out, he said he wanted to visit Ralph Abernathy, Reverend Abernathy, who was taking over the position at SCLC because he was second in command, basically at SCLC. And he had been with Dr. King when he was killed in Memphis. So, we went to Ralph Abernathy’s house. And when we walked in the house there were about four gentlemen in the living room just talking amongst themselves. And the Reverend was resting. And Juanita Abernathy, his wife, was sitting in the kitchen on the phone. And so, Allard Lowenstein knew Mrs. Abernathy. We walk into the kitchen, and then, Vernon, she got off the phone, and she took my hand, and she talked for about five minutes about what had happened, you know, with the assassination of Dr. King, and how nervous she was for her husband now being in this position, and so forth.

HEATHER GRAY: You know, it’s one of the most important five minutes of my entire life, I need to say. And then Reverend Abernathy came out, and greeted us. And then I took Lowenstein to a white-owned hotel. And then I did march in the funeral the next day. You couldn’t get into Ebenezer Baptist where the service took place, of course. Well, I couldn’t anyway, but I then marched in the funeral. Yeah, so that’s another part of the Southern experience, right, for sure.

VERNON OAKES: What’s so interesting is — like I said, I grew up in Bluefield, West Virginia — and in ’68 I was a junior in college at Bluefield State, a historically Black college. And my mother, though, I had a full scholarship to Clark College in Atlanta, and it was Clark College at the time, in both football and academics. And she would not let me go in 1965. And we argued that whole — well, it started before the summer, but that whole summer. And I don’t know, she may have saved my life, or I might have been right there with you. I don’t know, but it’s so interesting. I’ve asked the question, what would my life had been like if I had been in Atlanta in ’65 through ’69 or ’70. Interesting, but okay, so you have such a rich history. It’s kind of like, what would-

HEATHER GRAY: Well, thank you.

VERNON OAKES: What was it like to be the only white person in the procession, or driving all of these Black folk around in your car? And I assume there wasn’t a lot of white people there, it might’ve been, but what was that like? Or, does it make any difference?

HEATHER GRAY: You mean people for the funeral are you talking about?

VERNON OAKES: All of it, that whole scene, the funeral and then-

HEATHER GRAY: Well, I need to say that, you know, the interesting thing about what was happening when Dr. King was assassinated was that there were riots all over the country. You know, Black folks were rising up, and rioting. And I certainly understand, actually. But, we didn’t see that so much in Atlanta. And I will say, also, that the city leadership, and people all over the city were trying to do — white leadership in the city — were trying to do what they could to help. And my parents were also picking up people at the airport, actually, as it turned out. But, as I was driving Lowenstein, and [SOUNDS LIKE: Dennis], who was with him, right, we were driving to go to visit Ralph Abernathy. We were driving down Hunter Street, which is now Martin Luther King Jr. Drive, Vernon, my car stalled.

VERNON OAKES: We have to take a break with the car stall, and come back, okay? We’ll take our second break, and you’re such a great history, and eventually we have to get over to talk about co-ops. But, we’ll be right back. Welcome back, everybody. This program is Everything Cooperative, and this is Vernon Oakes. And we have Heather Gray on the line with us, who has an extraordinary history. And Heather, we are not going to be able to get through all of this.

HEATHER GRAY: I understand. So go ahead — I mean, I could shorten this a little bit. I do want to say, though, as I was driving Lowenstein to Reverend Abernathy’s house, my car stalled on Hunter Street, which is now Martin Luther King Jr. Drive in Atlanta. And these young Black youth males started rushing to the car, and shaking it, right. Because there were three whites, me and then Lowenstein, and Dennis, in the car. And Lowenstein said, hey Heather, you have to get this car started. And I said, tell me about it. All of a sudden my car started. But, you know, yeah, it was really a difficult time for everyone, I need to say. But, let me just, as far as cooperative economy, and I know we need to be talking about cooperatives, that is what the show is about, but at the end of-

VERNON OAKES: Let me just say this before you go on. So, I got that you lived in Canada, the US, Australia, Singapore, and the Philippines, and now you’re back in Atlanta, Georgia. So, you have a wealth of history in living in all those places. And you also checked the voting in South Africa in ’94.

HEATHER GRAY: I did, yes.

VERNON OAKES: So, that’s what I’m saying, it’s a wealth of history, and I get that I could talk to you on air, or off air for two, or three, or four, or five hours just because of what all you’ve done. What I wanted to get to was you worked for the Federation of Southern Cooperatives in Atlanta I think for twelve years. What was that like? And how did-

HEATHER GRAY: No, 23 years, 23 years. Yeah.

VERNON OAKES: 23 years? Oh, okay. 23 years.

HEATHER GRAY: From 1991, yeah, so how long is 23 years?

VERNON OAKES: Yeah, 2013, okay.

HEATHER GRAY: 2013. So yeah, no, but I knew Ralph — I started working in 1991 with the Federation of Southern Co-ops, but I knew Ralph and his work in the early 1980s, actually. But yeah.

VERNON OAKES: Yeah, Ralph Paige was great. I was really sorry when he passed away.

HEATHER GRAY: He was the executive director of the federation. He passed a few years ago.

VERNON OAKES: Yeah, he’s been on the show two or three times. He was on the first Thanksgiving. He came on Thanksgiving Day.

HEATHER GRAY: Wonderful, that’s great.

VERNON OAKES: So, what was that like working for the Federation of Southern Co-ops?

HEATHER GRAY: Well, let me just mention also before going into that Vernon, because in the 1980s I also worked with Coretta King. I directed a nonviolence program with her in the 1980s, which I was just honored to do that. And that was also, you know, just learning about the whole nonviolence philosophy, and stuff, which I have also written quite a bit about that as well, was a good sort of intro in some ways to the [SOUNDS LIKE: cooperative economic] development, and just people coming together and having a philosophy and understanding what their goals in life are, right. Which to me also is what cooperative economic development is largely about as well.

HEATHER GRAY: In fact, when I went to the Philippines, yes, I married an Australian, and you know, my son was born in Australia, and I lived all over Southeast Asia, it seems to be. But, when I was going to the Philippines, John [Zippert?], who was one of the founding members of the Federation of Southern Cooperatives — he lives in Alabama — he said, Heather, what are you going to do when you come back from the Philippines? And I said, I don’t know. He said, well, why don’t you come to the Federation? So, that’s what I did. I called Ralph when I came back from the Philippines, and I started working with the Federation. And I became the director of communications. I was just really honored to do this. But, as director of communications I started getting involved in a lot of other research projects, also, at the Federation.

VERNON OAKES: So, John has been on this program. And he and his wife have become co-op hall of famers. They’re heroes of the cooperative movement. And I was absolutely amazed to find out that John Zippert was from New York, because he sounds, and talks, and walks so southern. He reminds me of people from the south, because he’s been there so long. So that was just interesting to find out his history. So, he asked you to come back and you came back to the Federation. So, what’s the purpose you said, that Federation was economic development and working with Black farmers?

HEATHER GRAY: Yes. The Federation of Southern Cooperatives started in 1967. And it was created in 1967 to address the problems that Black farmers had been having, basically. But, I know you’ve had other Federation [indistinct] of course, on your show. So, yeah, they were inspired by the cooperative economic development work in Louisiana actually. So, that is what lead — well, I don’t know, we can go into a long history of this, right? But, they realized that in order for farmers to be protected, and to save land, basically, they had to come together. And this of course had to do with the huge discrimination that Black farmers had experienced. And the problems with holding onto land and so forth was just really critical.

HEATHER GRAY: The other thing, though, Vernon, a lot of my work ultimately for a number of years was working on the Black farmer lawsuit, because of — the Pigford lawsuit in the late 1990s because of the discrimination that Black farmers had experienced from the US Department of Agriculture itself. So, it’s been a lot of struggle, but the only way that we have been able to make progress is coming together, right.

VERNON OAKES: Coming together.

HEATHER GRAY: Yeah, exactly, coming together.

VERNON OAKES: Whether that’s the Chinese students working together, studying together, getting more out of this sort of — as a group you can get much more done if you use each other’s skills and knowledges, and whatever resources, like financial resources that one might have. And that’s why I like co-ops so much. And that education is critical in the cooperative, the fifth principle. I’ve taught for twelve years, Heather, and my mother was a schoolteacher, like your father was. And this sort of education was ingrained in me. My grandfather said, Vernon, get an education, boy, get an education. Whether he was sober or drunk, get an education, boy, ‘cause that’s the only thing the white man can’t take from you. And that’s been the thing, of always learning, always learning, always learning, always learning. Okay.

HEATHER GRAY: Yeah, excellent, excellent. I appreciate that philosophy, actually. So, one of the things, you know, I was talking about cooperatives, and my work at the Federation of Southern Cooperatives, I remember there was a gathering — this was in Alabama. Now, the Federation of Southern Cooperatives, as I know your listeners would know, has a 1,000 acre training center in West Alabama, which has just been a remarkable location, actually for any number of important events, and teaching sessions, and so forth, as far as cooperative economic development is concerned. But, there was a gathering that we had once with funders, actually, and we went to visit a credit union in West Alabama.

HEATHER GRAY: And I remember how this fellow from the [SOUNDS LIKE: Ford] Foundation was so impressed because the director of the credit union, which is also an entity that is of a cooperative philosophy, was saying that they had homeless folks in the community who were members of the credit union, and would donate money into the credit union when they could, right. And so, the director of this credit union said when this homeless fellow asked for a loan the guy said, we of course gave it to him because he’s part of our community. And you know, the Ford Foundation fellow was just stunned at this. And I thought it was just such a beautiful gesture, and action on the part of that credit union, because they all knew each other. This was a part of a commune, a community, right. And so, I just wanted to share that.

VERNON OAKES: That’s a great, great story. So, there are four types of co-ops, real quick. It depends on who owns and controls the business. If it’s owned and controlled by the employees it’s called a worker co-op. So, any business could be a worker co-op. If it’s owned and controlled by the people that uses their products or services it’s called a consumer co-op. Credit unions is a consumer co-op. Housing co-ops are consumer co-ops, because the people that use those products and services own it. Like that homeless person was a part of the ownership. And then some groups will get together and form a purchasing co-op. Farmers do that. Artists are beginning to do that.

VERNON OAKES: And so, they form a company who gets to be expert at what seeds you need, what fertilizer, gas, equipment, so that the farmers can get a better deal, because they’re buying in volume, and they have knowledge about it. And then farmers and artists and other people are also called the fourth type, it’s a purchasing co-op, and sometimes they’re called producer co-ops, where milk farmers will come together and they’ll form this business like Cabot Creamery or Organic Valley, and all of their milk and produce cheese, and cottage cheese, and all of the different milk products, and get it to markets that the farmer couldn’t get it to. And they normally have a better price.

VERNON OAKES: So, co-ops work in a lotta, lotta different ways. You would like this, there is a group in Pittsburgh, Heather, that’s Black women who are artists, and they do jewelry, and paintings, and carvings. And they got together and formed this co-op that they got a storefront, so they could sell their products together. Any individual artists couldn’t do it, but as a group. And they have some great, great products. And they also buy from other female artists throughout the world, and sell through their place.

HEATHER GRAY: Oh, that’s wonderful, wonderful.

VERNON OAKES: And it’s called Ujamaa, which means cooperative. So, a cooperative business enterprise. So yeah, it is wonderful. And this is how people can come together and use their resources and their skills and get more accomplished as a group. Whether it’s studying together, or forming a business, or creating jobs, or solving some community problem through this co-op. And that’s why National Co-op Bank sponsors this, and I’m so exciting about doing this program. Now, we gotta have you on two or three more times. I gotta tell you that right now. Because you got so much history I would love to talk about. What did you get-

HEATHER GRAY: Oh well thank you, Vernon. Thanks for sharing all of that. Thank you.

VERNON OAKES: So, what did you get-

HEATHER GRAY: I do want to mention, as far as cooperatives are concerned, you know, it provides the opportunity for so much as you were saying, as far as the women artists, right. For example, I was trying to remember now, it was a few years ago, but anyways some kinda major company was wanting to purchase some crops, right. And so, what folks in Mississippi were able to do was to collaborate with a number of farmers, who were associated with their cooperative, right, individual farmers, in order to fulfill this market demand. I mean, it just provides just so many opportunities. I’m always just so appreciative and astounded at so much of this. You know, so they all knew each other, they worked together, and they could reach out to other farmers as well, who might have wanted to join in this market venture. So yeah, there’s just wonderful examples of people coming together and advancing opportunities in the marketplace, period.

VERNON OAKES: So, Ben Burkett is the rep from the Federation from Mississippi. And I’ve had him on the program. He’s a very quiet, unassuming man. And when I met him he had on these, you know, coveralls with the things you put up under the fingers. And he just doesn’t — and when you get a chance, you get him to talk, it’s like, awesome. Whether it’s sweet potatoes where you got this huge order, any one farmer can’t do it, you need ten or twenty farmers to produce the sweet potatoes to send up north, Chicago, or New York or somewhere, or watermelons, or what have you.

VERNON OAKES: Working together they can get in to sell their products that they couldn’t do individually, and also get a better price. It’s phenomenal kinds of stories that I’ve heard him talk about and Cornelius Blanding there at the Federation now, who took over from Ralph, who’s a nice, young man, who’s doing a lot of great stuff there. Okay.

HEATHER GRAY: Yeah. But what I was talking about Mississippi, Vernon, it was Ben Burkett and the Indian Springs Farmers’ Cooperative that I was referring to that. So, it was Ben who took the lead in all of that, which makes sense, right?

VERNON OAKES: I’ve had a chance to meet him, and I’m just so amazed, and honored just to hear him talk, and so forth, once you can get him to talk. And we’ve got to take our final break, but the last time I was with him was at the cooperative impact in DC, that the NCBA — National Cooperative Business Association — puts on every year. This is co-op impact, and what’s the impact on our economy, and then also the world. Love to see you up here on that. We’ll be right back. We’re taking our final break, and talk about voting. We’ll be right back.

VERNON OAKES: Information is power. The National Co-op Bank is sponsoring this program. Their mission is to support American Cooperatives and their members, and any other organization that’s socially responsible by providing financial services, and particularly in low-income communities. So, NCBA has been around since the mid-80s, and they’ve been doing a great job of working with low income communities where often you will find Black and brown people. Heather, this is Black History Month, and the theme this year is African Americans and the vote. I want to go back to you said that more often when Europeans come over and take any particular country they will want to desire to control everything.

HEATHER GRAY: Absolutely.

VERNON OAKES: I find it interesting that they want to put in place democracy, which is the second principle of cooperation. Cooperatives is one member, one vote. Not based on how much money you have, but just if you are a member you have the same vote as any other member, which is one of the other reason I like co-ops. But, these Europeans want to put in a democracy, but then they want to control stuff. So, how have you seen that play, both in your study, and your travel to all of these different places. This whole thing, a vote.

HEATHER GRAY: Well, Europeans, wherever they’ve gone, whether it’s Australia, whether it’s in Indonesia, in the Philippines, in Singapore, in Canada, you name it, one, they want to take the land, that’s for sure. They want to control the land. And on the African continent, I mean, wherever Europeans have gone, they’ve done basically the same thing. They want to control the land, they want to control the economy, they want to control everything. Well, I mean, they’ve tried to do that everywhere. But certainly, as far as the democratic system is concerned, yeah, they want to control the vote. So, the interesting thing to me is that whenever there’s been a serious effort to try to develop something like — you know, I always say, actually, if there was ever a successful war in the world, Vernon, it had to be the Cold War.

HEATHER GRAY: Because it stopped people from even having a dialogue about economic systems. So, we’re seeing the same impact of that with having a discussion about socialism. Let me just say quickly, also, I’ve just been [indistinct] about this recently, because I’ve had a few people saying this. And one of my friends in Atlanta, [indistinct] who’s a renowned urban farmer, he said, Heather, you realize that Trump is a socialist, right? And a socialist in the sense that he has a collaborative effort with all the other wealthy people, and they try to control everything. They don’t do anything really without talking with each other.

HEATHER GRAY: And also they have been able to purchase Congress in so many ways. You know, Citizens United case that made corporations persons, this is just ridiculous. But anyway, so yeah, as far as the vote is concerned, it’s so incredibly important. But, there are efforts to try to undermine that in every conceivable way. And you know, there’s a long history of the FBI getting involved, and also trying to destroy groups and individuals who spoke out against this oppression on the part of a lot of wealthy folks in America, what can I say, and corporations altogether. I mean, Dr. King was one of them. He was wanting to see better salaries and so forth, and worker rights when he was in Memphis.

HEATHER GRAY: That’s what he was working on, and he was killed because of that. You know, they didn’t want that kind of a powerful voice in support of workers. So, I don’t know, where are we going with this?

VERNON OAKES: It’s interesting that what you’re saying with not even having to ask you is that my belief was Dr. King was sort of, like, the establishment put up with him. They looked. The FBI was always looking to see and then calling him communist and all of these things. But, when he starting talking about the economic things, war in Vietnam, and then getting salaries, you know, he always had this struggle between the rich and the poor, or between the barons and the peasants, no matter what culture you’re in. And when he then takes up for the peasants, or the poor, and says, you gotta pay them more, that’s when he got killed.

VERNON OAKES: And so, to me that was the sort of, no, we’re not going to do this. So, I do worry about Reverend Barber, who’s taken that up. But, I would like, if I could get to Reverend Barber is, which I’ve tried several times, and tried to get him on the program, he has a political answer of getting folks elected. And I believe that co-ops is the economic answer to poor people, because they get a chance to make new money. And it turns out to be a social business, because if people own the business, they own the productions, they own what’s produced, and then they own the profits, and they say what it is. That’s what a co-op does.

VERNON OAKES: So, co-ops to me is the answer for poor and marginalized people, which I never learned in the MBA program at Stanford. I didn’t learn anything about co-ops. It was all about corporates, and return on investments. So, getting better salaries and worker rights is what Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders was talking about last night in their whole programs. And then you got the people in the middle. And then you got the billionaire on the other side of it. I don’t know what he’s talking.

HEATHER GRAY: Let me just say, you know, it’s one of the reasons why I appreciate your program, Vernon, because you’re having a dialogue about these issues. Because as I said, because of the Cold War, people have just simply not been able to dialogue about economic systems, period. I mean, even — now, let me just mention to you also, I have a radio show in Atlanta, on WRG Atlanta, which is also an affiliate station of the Pacifica Network, but affiliate in that we are independently owned here in Atlanta — community owned, actually — but we do take some of the Pacifica programs. But, one of the people I’ve interviewed over the years is Richard Wolff, who is the renowned Marxist economist.

HEATHER GRAY: He went to Harvard. He said Harvard tried to make him into a good capitalist, but it didn’t work. And he was also recently very impressed with Mondragon. He went to Mondragon. So, he’s talking a lot about cooperative economic development now. But, he said that when the Occupy movement took place in New York a few years ago that it just transformed people’s attitudes towards the work he was doing, because people realized from that movement the huge economic inequities, as in the one percent versus the 99 percent, which is just outrageous really. And he said, people just started flocking to his lectures since then, which is a good thing, because we just need to dialogue about this.

HEATHER GRAY: I mean, you know, it’s interesting to me, the New Deal that Roosevelt came up with to address the depression, right, which was to me, what he developed was a mixed economy, where there were all kinds of programs to benefit the masses of the people. And yes, the corporations were able to do basically whatever they still wanted to do. But, to me I call that a mixed economy. But anyway, I know our time’s just going quickly here, and we could probably dialogue about so much of this, but as [SOUNDS LIKE: Dr. King] would say, Vernon, where do we go from here?

VERNON OAKES: Well, that is the question, the future. What do we do from here? Because we’ve got to get people out to vote. Gotta go vote. Gotta go vote. And whenever I hear mostly a young person, sometimes an older African American say, my vote don’t count, it’s like, you gotta get out of that. You gotta go vote for somebody, because we really, the Trump policies are hurting us, and they will continue to hurt us the next one year, and if we get five years of him, I don’t know what the world’s gonna look like.

HEATHER GRAY: No, I completely agree, and that’s scary stuff. But yes, people need to vote, absolutely. There’s just no question about that. The power of the vote, it’s just remarkable, really. And it took so long for the people to get that right to vote in the United States for the [indistinct] people. Yeah, people have to vote. There’s no question.

VERNON OAKES: Yeah, people died to get the right to vote. That’s the African Americans, Native Americans, women. And so, it’s always so interesting to me that it was the white male, and also landowners — yeah, so white, male, landowners. If you didn’t own land you couldn’t vote in England. So, it was yeah, we want democracy, but only for this class of people, and everybody else can’t participate in democracy. We got that right now, and people have fought for that right, and died for that right, and lost their homes, and all kinds of things. So, people gotta go vote. That’s the future to me. That’s where we go now. What do we do?

HEATHER GRAY: Let me just mention, one of the good things that’s happened recently, actually because Brian Kemp who was the Secretary of State here, who is now the Governor of Georgia, and probably a Governor because of the outrageous things he did when he was Secretary of State. But, they took all kinds of folks off the voting roll.

VERNON OAKES: Purging, yeah.

HEATHER GRAY: So, they sent notices to people, and so forth about you know, [indistinct]. And if they didn’t answer this response then they would take them off the voting rolls. I mean, it’s more complicated than that, but there was a lawsuit brought by Greg Callis, actually, who was the one who discovered the hanging chads in Florida, right. Anyway, they were successful in this lawsuit against them to get access to all the names of the people who had been taking off the voting rolls. So, this was a huge victory. In fact, the federal judge in this case said, there’s no need to go to trial, because the case was so incredibly weak. So, this is a good sign. So, there is some progress here, certainly in the state of Georgia where we’re hoping that this is gonna have a huge impact on this upcoming election. Yes, people need to vote. People died in order to vote, absolutely true.

VERNON OAKES: We’ve gotta go, and I truly thank you for being on with us today. And I want to get you back on and also maybe come to your show to talk about co-ops and the benefits of co-ops.

HEATHER GRAY: I know. I’d love to do that, love to do that. Thank you so much, Vernon.

VERNON OAKES: Thank you so much, Heather. Bye.

HEATHER GRAY: Bye.