John Holdsclaw IV, President and CEO of Rochdale Capital

VERNON OAKES: Good morning, this is your host of the Everything Co-op show. My name is Vernon Oakes. And this morning we have John Holdsclaw IV on the program with us this morning. We are so pleased. Good morning, John.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Good morning, Vernon. How are you today?

VERNON OAKES: I’m great. I’m glad you’re on. It’s always a pleasure to talk to you about co-ops and the status of the cooperative world. So there’s something new on your horizon. What’s happening with you?

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: I am proud to say that I’m the founding president and CEO of a brand new community development loan fund, Rochdale Capital. We were founded, and our strategic partner is the National Cooperative Bank, of which you have a great deal of knowledge about. But Rochdale Capital is an organization who is dedicated to providing financial services to under-resourced communities, and the promotion of community ownership and cooperative principles. And so really excited about it. It started last December. We had our first press release, I think back in February and we’re in the process now of just working to build the infrastructure of the organization, hiring staff, getting payroll and all that kind of stuff set up. And it’s definitely been a humbling experience indeed, since January 1. But Rochdale Capital is here.

VERNON OAKES: So how did you come up with the name Rochdale Capital?

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: That’s a great question. That’s a great question. And, you know, obviously I think a lot of people first think about the Rochdale Society of Equitable Pioneers who in 1844 in the UK created the cooperative principles. But it really was not the reason why I chose the name and why I will always pay homage to the Rochdale Society. It really was around the span between 1845 and 1847 where the famous American abolitionist Frederick Douglas left the US aboard the Transatlantic boat to Cambria and went to the UK and got an opportunity over the course of two years to give more than 300 speeches there. He left here an enslaved individual and after his time there and becoming really close with the member of parliament by the name of John Bright, was able to secure a majority of the money that he needed to buy his freedom.

So he left here an enslaved individual but he came back to America a free man. It’s really the story that resonated with me the most. And so it’s kind of a twofer in regards to why I chose the name Rochdale, is to pay homage to the society, but also to the impact that they had on the life of one of my favorite Americans of all time, Frederick Douglas.

VERNON OAKES: So the Rochdale pioneers lived the values, the ethical values of honesty, openness, social responsibility and caring for others. I call it caring for one another, the golden rule. So in this case they were caring for Black enslaved people which you didn’t find throughout the world, but there were abolitionists that were doing that, and that’s awesome, buddy. Rochdale Finance Capital is the name of it. Rochdale.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: It’s actually Rochdale Capital, Rochdale Capital. We happen to do finance but it’s Rochdale Capital.

VERNON OAKES: Rochdale Capital is the name of it. And you said underserved communities. Do you have any particular communities you’re going to start focusing on, any place?

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Well obviously we’re DC Metro-based, and so we’re big believers — I mean, listen, we’re going to do this three ways, Vernon, then I’ll tell you a little bit about the communities. Number one, like I said before, through the promotion of community ownership and cooperative principles is number one. Then number two, we’re going to do this under the auspice of equity, diversity and inclusion, and what I mean by that is that we want to provide equitable access to capital for minority entrepreneurs, i.e. women, minority women, entrepreneurs of color.

And then number three and last but not least, we would be remiss if we did not leverage the relationship of our founding and strategic partner the National Cooperative Bank of which one of their common mandates has always been since it was created, was to work in under-resourced communities to provide, you know, make best efforts that a certain percentage of their disbursements be in those communities. And so those are the three ways we want to do it. But the communities that we’re targeting are obviously in our own backyard, DC Metro, be it District of Columbia, be it Prince George’s, Montgomery, Fairfax, you name it, counties, number one. Number two, because of the history that the bank has in New York as it relates to cooperatives and other community-based organizations there, another part of our strategy, and this is very important I think, our former CEO Chuck Snyder said to me one time, he said I started my career in the South but really have wished that I had done more there.

And so what the bank did a couple years ago was start the development of a placement strategy in the southeast. And so one of our targets at Rochdale Capital or our targeted investment areas is going to be Atlanta, because to me, the size that it is, there aren’t any major — to my knowledge — any major community development loan funds in Atlanta. I think you have community development banks and community development credit unions but no loan funds. And there’s a portion down there which I call the cradle of the Civil Rights Movement, which is at the west end, where Martin Luther King’s home still is there, the children still own it. And Ambassador Young and so many others came out of that west end of Atlanta. But it needs a lot of economic development in investment. And so we hope to do some work there, for sure.

VERNON OAKES: One of the highlights of my career was meeting Ambassador Young. I met him at a Federation of Southern Co-ops annual meeting six years or so ago.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Vernon, it might’ve been the same time that I met him. And I remember this line from the speech that he gave that night, and I’ll never forget it. And he said that people ask me sometimes, Ambassador, why did the Civil Rights Movement — and he said to them, because Black folks got air conditions, and that was his response. So I will never forget that line from Ambassador Young about Black folks getting air conditions into the Civil Rights Movement.

VERNON OAKES: Well I’m hoping that we’ll get some new blood pumped into folks even if they have air conditioners, to have more civil rights for all folks. All right, so you’ve got DC Metro, New York City and the South. Strategic partner is the National Cooperative Bank and that was where you worked for as you take on this new position. So what’s been the bank’s role particularly Chuck Snyder who I consider an awesome friend and was hurt tremendously personally and the co-op world hurt when he passed last November —

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Right.

VERNON OAKES: — but what role did he have in starting this?

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: You know, that’s a great question. And one story that I always like to tell, you know, my main role at the bank is EVP of strategic initiatives, was around thought leadership as well as working to development business with community development financial institutions or CDFIs or certified CDFIs. And so the eight years that I did that job, or I’ve done it, I spent a bulk of my time reaching out to other CDFIs across the country. Amalgamated Bank and NCB became the first non-CDFI banks to become a member of the Community Development Bankers Association and were very instrumental in the creation of the Southern Equity Fund which provides secondary capital to low-income credit unions, as well as community development credit unions. And so we really ran the gamut throughout that community development finance phase. But all of that was external facing. And so another part of my job obviously from a business development standpoint was to bring in referrals, or deals. And so what I came to find Vernon, was, and while the bank has this uncommon mandate and does a great job of meeting or exceeding it every year, it was starting to become harder and harder for me to get these transactions done, you know, in a regulated environment.

And obviously the bank is regulated entity. And so I think in expressing this frustration one day to Chuck, and Chuck said, well we should create our own mission lending entity. And I was tasked with that and we I think at first looked at creating a community development corporation but there was a still a regularly tie. And then we looked at the creation of a nonprofit loan fund. And I think in a meeting one day, reaching that level of frustration again, I just said to Chuck, well why don’t we just create a community development financial institution, and what is now Rochdale Capital was born.

And so he was seriously committed to the mission lending and the work that the bank did and wanted to find a way to do that in partnership with another organization. Again at its crux, while Rochdale will work with other CDFIs and other financial institutions, our main strategic partner obviously will be the National Cooperative Bank and so that’s really how it came to be. And I spent most of 2021 working with the NCB board and some folks internally at the bank on the creation. Sadly Chuck was not able to see the Rochdale become incorporated and see the logo and some of the other things. But I think that he would be very happy with the direction that we chose to go in, as well as some of the early work that we’ve done from a relationship-building standpoint, as well as building the infrastructure of the organization. I think it’s very important that we live our brand, and Chuck was against all things unjust, and so I take great pride that we have a very diverse board in regards to the way that it looks, in regards to its background, in regards to what it represents as well as, you know, we’re taking the reactive role like I said before, in our future lending being to entrepreneurs or cooperators of color, and then last but not least, really trying to from a vendor and contractor standpoint, also live that brand as well.

And so I think he’d be really happy with the direction that we’re going in, but jokingly say that Rochdale came out of frustrations from a [indistinct] standpoint as well as trying to figure out what structure we can make it. But I think that CDFIs have been so instrumental in the last two years, be it Covid, be it the social and racial reckoning that this country has gone through, CDFIs have been on the front lines of being the first financial responders to a lot of these under-resourced communities of entrepreneurs who were unable to go to financial institutions or mainstream banks and get the kind of help that they needed.

VERNON OAKES: So you keep talking about regulations, regulatory environment. What are some of the regulations, or what are some of the things that cause a bank not to be able to help and support underserved communities or provide loans that you saw and caused that frustration?

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Well, many people know this and some folks do not. I mean, all banks have to adhere to what’s called the Community Reinvestment Act, which came out of the Carter administration, that encouraged financial institutions to be located in under-resourced communities or communities of color to also loan and provide services.

VERNON OAKES: We’ve got to take our break, I’m sorry. I’ll come back and we’ll take up there, if you would. I’d like to get the answer to that question. So we’ll be right back. Please don’t touch that dial.

VERNON OAKES: Welcome back everybody. This is Vernon Oakes. The program is Everything Cooperative. We have Mr. John Holdsclaw on the line with us this morning, who’s talking to us about Rochdale Capital. And John I really like that you talked about how you chose this term that Fredrick Douglas, the folks at Rochdale, they have the values and principles of cooperation. I think it was 1844 — between 1845 and 1847 they helped Frederick Douglas get his freedom. And before we took a break we were talking about other underserved folks, and what are the regulations that bankers find themselves up against that you said you were frustrated because you couldn’t do some of these loans. And I wanted you to explain it and that’s what you started before we took the break.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Thank you Vernon. And what I was stating before was that I think a lot of people are aware that most banks have to adhere to the Community Reinvestment Act or CRA it’s called. So banks are located in a lot of communities of color, under-resourced communities. They have to loan a certain percentage and be active in regards to providing financial literacy and other things in under-resourced communities. But most financial institutions are regulated by the Federal Reserve, the FDIC — I’m sorry for the acronyms, and the OCC, the Office of Controller of the Currency. And I always tell people banks have two jobs. They have to mitigate risk and they have to get paid back. And so I think in that regard a lot of times decisions are made for financial institutions about the approval or triage of loans, based upon that level of risk. And I think studies have shown and there are facts out there that show that a lot of times entrepreneurs of color and others are approved at a lower rate than some of the other entrepreneurs. And I think at NCB, again especially with the mission lending component of our mandate, uncommon mandate being a large part of the DNA of the organization, they will, and we have done everything we could to mitigate the risk for any loans that have come in that fit to this community development financial space.

But again you can’t do every loan. And for that reason it doesn’t mean that when you create a Rochdale Capital that they get all the high-risk loans. It just means that because it’s not regulated that it can be a little bit more innovative in the finance and maybe able to go out and get some philanthropic dollars or do some other things that a traditional financial institution cannot. And so our goal, because of this is for number one, to leverage the National Cooperative Bank in that regard, but also be an asset to them, because there may be a transaction or a mission loan that they’re unable to do but that just misses the criteria by a very small amount.

And so if that’s the case then in a perfect world Rochdale Capital would be able to do that loan or take that loan from the National Cooperative Bank. I mean, in the end both organizations want to make a great impact in these communities that need it the most, be it community health, be it community solar, be it food security, we both want to have a great impact, be it limited equity cooperatives, be it worker cooperatives, we both want to have an impact. I think the creation of Rochdale Capital now, allows both of us to do that throughout this partnership.

VERNON OAKES: So you just mentioned a lot of different co-ops. And I interviewed Chuck and I tried to get to understand what you’re talking about, this regulatory environment. But I have it that banks are only interested in three things, most banks — may not be NCB but most banks are interested in one, getting their money back, two, getting their money back, and three, getting their money back. If there’s a fourth it is having some interest off of that, when they get their money back. So when you’re looking at folks that — so most banks will look at people that have other assets that they can go get if this loan fails.

If they’re starting a new business, and new businesses are risky by nature, then they’ll loan people money that have real estate or stocks or bonds or other things that they could go grab if this loan fails. And so in underserved communities, I mean, in Black communities, the average net worth of a family in Black communities is $17,000 where in a White community is $171,000. I think I’ve got those numbers right.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: It’s right. It’s 10 to one.

VERNON OAKES: So the White folks then therefore have a better chance of getting money from banks than Black folks because they have more assets that they can go get. It’s a less riskier loan. And I kept asking Chuck over and over again, how do you guys make loans in these underserved communities? I mean, do you do things, and this is the same kind of thing to both you and Rochdale Capital, would you look at somebody’s personality, their other variables that are not related to how much cash or assets that they have? How likely is this loan going to succeed because there’s a group of people that have been studying for four years and they’ve got a great business plan and they have everything sort of worked out and they are really, really good people but they have no assets.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Right, right. And I’ll say this, [indistinct] with the 10 to one, listen the racial wealth gap in this country, where I’m from in the country they say sometimes you whistle past a graveyard and try to avoid things, but it’s real. And I think Americans need to come to the harsh reality that it is. What you’re referring to Vernon is what I call the friends-and-family funds. So for example, if an entrepreneur of color starts a business, he or she may not be able to go to their friends and their families and say hey, I got this great idea for this business, and get X, Y and Z dollars of startup money. The gap is already that wide, they’re already starting with a less amount. It puts them at a disadvantage.

And I think that’s why you saw during Covid where 41 to 44 percent of all Black-owned businesses failed or had to close down because of the impact of Covid because they didn’t have those reserves and they didn’t have that backup to go to. And I like to think in a perfect world some of those are coming back. But they’re not, and so what NCB and what Rochdale has done and Rochdale will do, I mean, like for example, we just did a great — closed a loan in Detroit called the Detroit Food Commons in the north end of Detroit. It’s the first transit oriented development created in Detroit, which means that it’s built around their train system or their subway or metro system as we call it in DC.

And it’s a Black-led, majority Black membership co-op that is not only going to provide food security for this neighborhood but it’s also going to provide community space for tutoring, community meetings, giving culinary folks who are aspiring to be chefs, opportunities to create and sell their wares. That said, our part of that deal was very small. And we came in more than likely on the debt side where there’s a combination of city money and foundation money. And see that city money and that foundation money is what mitigates the risk for the bank, and will mitigate the risk for organizations like Rochdale. The bank may not be able to do that deal on its own. When folks come together collectively like in so many of these cases in what I call multi-stack deals it’s where it allows us to mitigate our risk but to make the loan, because we do know that its high mission, it’s going to provide a great opportunity in that community.

And so that’s really the way that the bank tries to go about doing it. I like to think at Rochdale Capital, that when opportunities like that come into play and we do hit a snag, we’re going to roll our sleeves up and try to come up with the best financial solution that we can find but also know that we can’t do every loan. And I’ve said this and people ask, but I’m a horrible banker, Vernon, but I do consider myself — someone at NCB might say, well now you tell me, but I’m a horrible banker but I do consider myself to be a pretty halfway decent community development finance person.

And so that’s the way I want to lead this organization. That’s the way we want to approach opportunities and again, we want to make it very personalized. One of the things I think that community development loan funds and CDFIs have lost over the years is that a large part of what they do was based around development services. And I think sometimes many of them have become so interested in chasing the capital or chasing the dollars or the grant funds that some of the development services fall by the wayside. But we want people in Black and Brown communities and under-resourced communities to know how to become a cooperative. We want people to understand how to write a business plan. We want people to understand a lot of things that others may be able to tap in from the friends-and-family fund or their network that some folks in our community may not. And so development services, and having that personal touch much like NCB has with customers, is one of the things that we want to lead with.

VERNON OAKES: So I’m glad you talked about the Detroit — that’s Malik Yakini who heads that up.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Yes.

VERNON OAKES: And my history with Malik is that I went to visit my nieces and nephews in Detroit, and when the bank had purchased this equipment that we’re using today to connect to the radio station, I interviewed Malik in his office for the show. It was a live show in his office with Malik, and really I went to visit the farm that they had, creating vegetables. I wanted to just sort of make me a salad right there, go pluck some stuff out and make a salad. But this is what I’m talking about. You meet folks that, this group of people that I met were just wonderful, hardworking, great people.

And in the process of getting a building and creating a food co-op, getting membership as they go along, increasing the members, you have to have a movement along with a marketing plan and management, are the three things that I was told — Ed Whitfield told me that’s what you need to have a good food co-op, was those three things. So they were creating the movement. They had the management, and then they were doing the marketing. That’s what you need to success. And they also need money.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: But Vernon, take it back even more than that. I mean, they took a park in Detroit that nobody visited, nobody used, and they turned it into this amazing community garden, and it started on principle number seven, concern for community, in my mind, which led to everything else.

VERNON OAKES: And we’re going to come back and talk about concern for community after our second break. And that’s a great one. They took a park and that park was beautiful. It looked even better with those vegetables. We’ll be right back. Please don’t touch that dial.

VERNON OAKES: Welcome back everybody, this is Vernon Oakes and the program is Everything Cooperative. You know, we’ve been on this show now for eight and a half years John, and —

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Wow.

VERNON OAKES: — National Co-op Bank has been our partner ever since. NCB’s mission is to support and be an advocate for America’s cooperatives and their members, especially in low-income communities, by providing innovative financial and related services. And before we took the break, you were just talking about — well, the whole show is how the bank has helped us spin off, or helped you after you were being frustrated that some of the loans, that they could not make, created Rochdale Capital, and how the bank and you and the bank can go into organizations and provide innovative financial and related services so people of color or people in underserved, you called it under-financed, under-resourced.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Under-resourced. I mean, we’ve got to look at this Vernon, at the end of the day if you’re in a rural area of the country and there are not banks, and while I’m not a big fan of the term, you’re in a banking desert or if you’re in a place like the South Shore of Chicago, a deal will be financed called [indistinct] Plaza that’s a few blocks from the Obama Center and there hadn’t been a grocery store there in eight years. Some folks call that a food desert.

I call it food security. So at the end of the day, if you can’t get to a health center that’s in your neighborhood if you don’t have insurance, you don’t have access. And what gets you access are those resources. And so I like to use the term under-resourced, because when you say low and moderate or LMI or low-income communities, there’s always this automatic, be it unconscious, bias or conscious bias of thought about it being a Black community or a Latino community. And so I want to kind of change that narrative by talking about things being under-resourced. And so that’s the playground, that’s the ballpark that we want to play in.

And again, let me verify one thing for you, Rochdale Capital is not an affiliate — and you didn’t say this, but it’s not an affiliate of the National Cooperative Bank. It is a separate and unaffiliated entity. We have two separate boards, two separate CEOs. We have two separate bylaws and the whole nine yards, and structures. But at its core both of our missions are aligned completely around the promotion of cooperative principles. The whole community ownership piece that I’m bringing into or wrapping my arms around is in hope of engaging more people in the community to create their own ownership structures or be it community land trusts, be it cooperative enterprises, be it commercial use for working with community land trust and others, community solar, community health, community facilities.

So stop me when I say community too much, but I just think it’s important for people — I grew up in a part of my hometown called Statesville, North Carolina and I never understood this when I was a kid but I do now, the Black community was cut up into two parts. One part was called Rankin Town and one part was called Rabbit Town. I have no idea where that came from but I grew up in Rankin Town, and one thing I can say about Rankin Town was that they were a tight-knit community and we all came together for the betterment of our own good.

You were out in the street doing something you weren’t supposed to do, and one of the Daniels or Miss Rose or somebody could pull you up and it was not going to be a good night in the Holdsclaw house if that ever happened. And so in a perfect world Vernon, that’s what I’m trying to get us back to. I don’t want to fly into a city and say hey, I’m Dr. Holdsclaw, I know what’s best for you. We’re going to finance you doing this or that. I want to be able to talk to people, to try to find the solution so that they take ownership of their own community and that we’re able to provide them those development services or financial services that they’ll need to be successful, so.

VERNON OAKES: So you’re talking about community, and I grew up in a small community in Bluefield, West Virginia and if we were out in somebody’s apple tree or pear tree and one of the neighbors caught us, we would likely get a spanking there, and they would call my mama, but there was no telephones. And that was literally a shout, Flory, this boy’s out here, okay, and you were going to get it when you get home, too. Yeah, that was the — it takes a village to raise a family. It takes a village to raise a child. It takes a village to raise a business, and this is what I like about this whole community and cooperative world.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: It does. It does.

VERNON OAKES: Yeah, for them to be successful. So we talked about Malik, and I think I’m a member there. I put up some money one time when he was on the show. I really liked what they were doing. I loved it. The same thing with the gentleman in Flint, Michigan. I don’t know if you’ve talked to him.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: I’ve heard about him, [indistinct] told me about that. I haven’t done enough research. I do know now that you can go online to Detroit Food Commons if you search it, and I think you can join their co-op online now. So I want to do that, but at the same time hopefully when the groundbreaking occurs — I love groundbreakings Vernon. I’m sorry, not groundbreaking, grant opening. I’m not big on holding the shovel but I am big on going through the door for the first time and I really want to pay for my membership there and get my membership number there in Detroit and do whatever I can to help support them.

I’m not there often but I want to make Detroit Food Commons my food store or grocery store of choice, so I’m really happy that we were involved in that transaction and I’m really looking forward to the future. There’s a great organization there called Develop Detroit. It’s run by an amazing leader named Sonya Mays and she’s one of my favorite people in the community development world. And she is just doing so much good there along with some other Detroit-based organizations, as well as Capital Impact Partners, which is my last employer before coming to the bank.

VERNON OAKES: Okay, so Detroit, we talked about Detroit, but you mentioned earlier DC, New York and the South. Detroit wasn’t even in the picture, so let’s move to DC. Are you working with anybody now to do any deals in the DC area?

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Not just yet. I mean, Vernon, I know one of our board members Paul Hazen was very instrumental with the Limited Equity Co-op Commission that was working with Councilwoman Brands there to try to provide some money for [indistinct] at the co-op. I have a great classmate from grad school, [indistinct] who runs Empowered [indistinct]. She lives in the Ellie Jo Baker cooperative off of university in DC. So I’ve got a wealth of people to turn to. Once I have a little bit more time I’d like to make the rounds and meet a lot of folks in the area to see what we can do.

There are a lot of Black-led or Black-owned cooperatives in the area. I remember one time I was on your show many years ago and got a call from a cooperative there, a majority Black, and they said they wished they would’ve known about us a couple weeks before because they had just closed on a refi with Wells Fargo because they didn’t know we existed. And in my mind, and obviously I’m a little biased, I feel in a lot of ways, especially in the Washington DC metropolitan area or as it relates to a wider audience, be it new media like podcasts and things that you all are doing, that this gets the word out about the National Cooperative Bank, and now Rochdale Capital.

So I long for the day when we grow inside, where it’s a program sponsored not only by the National Cooperative Bank, but by Rochdale Capital alone, with hopes that it opens up a broader coalition of CDFIs that have cooperative experience, so my shameless plug there in a hope that I have for the future as it relates to Everything Co-op. And so that was an opportunity —

VERNON OAKES: John, there’s nothing shameless about you saying you want to support this program. There’s nothing shameless in that at all. No, no, no.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: I can say it, really, okay. Well call me shameless but I want to support Everything Co-op, I do. I do want Rochdale to be in some way, shape or fashion, the number-one or number-two fan behind the National Cooperative Bank and promotion of Everything Co-op.

VERNON OAKES: So I was on that task force that Paul Hazen worked, the DC task force, Limited Equity Housing Task Force. And there are 99 limited equity co-ops in DC.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Wow.

VERNON OAKES: And there’s plenty of room, plenty of need for refinancing, for renovations. Some of these are 40, 50-year-old communities, need new roofs, new HVACs, windows, da da da. So there’s plenty of room for that. The district has a program, if there are 20 units or less, that they can apply for a $200,000 grant.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Wow.

VERNON OAKES: And so if you take the $200,000 grant, 20 units or less, and then let’s say they need a million dollars, well there’s your 20 percent down if they have no other debt. So there’s all kinds of room when you have that kind of base. Now that if it’s 20 units or less. But if it’s bigger than that, then there’s all kinds of ways, I think of funding that and financing that, particularly with the Rochdale Capital being in that mix of finance, those 99 that are there. And we were talking about increasing, I think it was doubling the number of limited equity housing co-op units in the district? It was some number that we came up with, and council member Anita Bond said that co-op, limited equity housing co-ops are the answer to gentrification.

She came up with that halfway through and just a lightbulb came on and she was enthused and energetic and it’s like yay, you got it. And she was just really wonderful to work with. Covid hit. They had two laws in place. One was to make that task force permanent, and the other one was to put some money up, get some money on the coffers to help limited equity housing co-ops and also to limited equity housing co-ops, when they’re started up they have five years no property taxes.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Right.

VERNON OAKES: And we’ve concluded in our research that five years just doesn’t do it, and we’ve asked them to do forever. As long as you’re a limited equity housing co-op, you meet the need then there’s no property taxes. And so they were going to take that up. And I think we’ll get back to that after Covid ceases a bit.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Well Vernon, let me say two things. One, I want to apologize to the councilwoman because I said Brands earlier and it’s Bonds, number one. Number two, thank you for the entail of the 99 units. What I’m finding now in a lot of my discussions, I had a conversation yesterday with Chicago Community Loan Fund, had a conversation last week with the Massachusetts Association of Housing Cooperatives, and it’s not necessarily the blanket loans, for the entire co-op that people are very interested in. There are these individual share loans Vernon, for each individual unit. So you’ve got 44 people in a unit but only 100 people need share loans.

I think what is happening is that there is desire for some of these units to get these share loans. And I’m not talking about 10 million, five million. I’m talking about 5,000, 10,000. For example, in Chicago you’ve got older limited equity co-ops there and you’ve got the Obama Center coming in. And folks don’t want to lose their cooperatives, and they also don’t want to lose their homes, so they want to do some improvements. And so we’ve got to find a better way to produce them. And last but not least, and I know we may be about to go to a break, is that I did my graduate work in Ivy City in DC, very historic community.

The Alexander Crummell School is there. Tell anybody to Google, to learn the history of Ivy City. I’ve got to find this article. If anybody’s on this call please let me know. There was a — to not be gentrified out of their community, there were four homes of families that had been there for some times, that actually created a co-op of these five row homes in a row, I think, to stay in that community. And I have been breaking my neck trying to find that article, because I think it’s a powerful story but also a great example of what can be done so that you don’t have to leave your community no matter how fast it may be changing.

And I saw it one time on my computer screen, deleted it, lost it but I’ve got to find the names of these individuals who did this, because I want our website to have a story about them. And so the website is not up yet but I do want people to know that there will be a lot of good stuff on there.

VERNON OAKES: And we’re going to take our final break. The hour’s almost up. I knew that there’s just so much we need to talk about. I want to go to what you’re going to do in the South when we come back, the different kinds of things that are going on in the South. We’ve talked about the district in Detroit. We could spend some time talking about New York but I think if we get to the South there’s enough that we can do just there in this next session. Thank you so very much Joh, for being on. We’ll be right back. Please don’t touch that dial.

VERNON OAKES: — power this [indistinct] model. The reason we have this program and the reason the NCB helped up to get it started was to give you information about co-ops. You know, information is not where you get the power. You get the power when you get into action, when you use the information. It’s the action that causes the power. So information is the start of power. Action is completing that power, getting the power. So we’re going to talk now with John Holdsclaw about what actions they’re taking in the South, or what you see happening.

And before we get started, I just want to tell the audience about, the UN declared 2014 to 2024, a decade for people of African descent. The United Nations declared that decade, and there’s a group of people in the South that have been working on a strategy for Black folks mainly in the South, but I’m also looking at the whole US, and I’m on a sub-committee of that committee and that is we’re looking at cooperative economics, or mutual aid and cooperative economics. So we’re having a conference on the 29th and 30th of this month, but it’s a working conference. It’s only for people that have been invited, and John as you know, we’ve invited you there so you can help us look at and create a strategy, a plan for cooperative economics in the South. So what do you plan on doing? You said the South was a part of Rochdale Capital. I’m going to get it, I’m going to get it.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: I’m going to have a tee-shirt that has it phonetically written out, so no worries.

VERNON OAKES: Okay.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Vernon, listen, I say to people sometimes, I say that CDFIs are very important right now. HBCUs are very important. I’m a graduate of [indistinct] State University. And then last but not least, the southeast is fast becoming a hotbed of activity as it relates to economic development and investment. And so I had this epiphany of buying a sweatshirt or a tee-shirt that says I run a CDFI, I went to an HBC, I’m from the southeast, and I think that people will just stop me on the street. They want to hug me and either off to buy the tee-shirt off of me or just realize that it’ll help my street credibility.

But all jokes aside, the southeast now is, you know, I think when you look at the progression of things all across the country as related to investment, I think it really started in Detroit. I think it went from there down to Memphis, and then I think now you’re looking at places like Jackson, which a lot of people don’t know has a very strong mutualism and cooperative movement there, as the next place. You’ve got foundations like the Kellogg Foundation that have had an office there for 25 years. I mean, they saw this some time ago. And you’re starting to see a lot of major philanthropic groups focus more on the southeast. Our Southeastern Equity Fund that the bank was able to do, was all around helping low-income and community development credit unions throughout the southeast. When you talk about the Green County Credit Union in Depps, Alabama, or the fact that it has a million dollars in assets, it’s so incredible to me, because the size of that county and that area, to know that that much investment has been put into that credit union is a testament to the work that they’re doing.

And so I feel like in building upon your effort, you know, you have all of these black belt towns along the Mississippi and this is where all the people in this country, Black people in this country came from, from the great migration standpoint and went up the river and got off in Waterloo, Iowa and got off in Chicago and got off in other areas, and so they still have strong infrastructure. They still have strong city councils and city mayors and strong municipalities. And so I just feel like we’ve got to build upon that, but there also has to be us thinking outside of the traditional realm of what we’ve done in the past to help them.

And so I know for us, from a place-based strategy standpoint, we want to do more in the South. We want to help others. And one of the things that I love to do, and I’m going to talk about a cooperator and a good, just like we are at running a community [indistinct] who runs the Federation of [indistinct] we’ve been in some discussions for some time. They have a small loan fund that they created, many, many years ago. And so I’m trying to work with them on trying to find some way to capitalize this loan fund, have them make some loans and build upon what I’ve learned through the creation of the Rochdale capital, to get them to apply for CDFI certification as well.

For people who don’t know, the CDFI fund and the US Treasury certified CDFIs but when you get that certification, it’s like getting the Good Housekeeping seal of approval and it opens you up to a world of outside grant opportunities and outside government grant opportunities. And so that’s one of the things that I’ve been working with him on for some time, and want him to be extremely successful but also let him know he doesn’t need to raise a million dollars for this reality to come to fruition.

He just needs to have an initial capital raise that’ll allow him to make — they can be very small, four or five loans to folks throughout his network. And you’re talking about the Federation has offices in Mississippi, Alabama, I think Louisiana and some other places across — maybe Florida, you know? So it can be a great opportunity for them to be able to provide Black farmers and members of the Federation with much-needed dollars to help them further the already great work that they’re doing. So there’s a lot of opportunities here and I think a lot of people are seeing these dollar signs and are coming to see [indistinct] the way the CDFIs — and I’m not taking anything away from their initial effort.

But I think that sometimes we chase those dollars but don’t necessarily know what we’re getting into and so that’s why I think we want to be very intentional about what we do and so I applaud you for the [indistinct] effort. I’m going to be honored to be there on the 29th. I can’t be there on the 30th because of the Co-op 5K race but I’m honored to be there and provide my own contribution to what you’re doing.

VERNON OAKES: Well thank you for being there. I’m looking forward to a great time. But you mentioned a 5K race and that’s honoring Chuck Snyder, so can you give a plug in for CDF Cooperative Development Foundation?

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Yeah, I can, I can. And I am a brand new board member, and I think when the board chair called me and asked me about taking the long-time chair that Chuck Snyder had, it probably was one of the biggest honors outside of winning the [indistinct] Award along with another fellow Dryer Award winner, you Vernon, in my cooperative history. And so what we’ve done is we do it every year and Chuck’s favorite saying was do well to do good. And so the theme around the race this year is all around doing well to do good.

And so we provided a hybrid model where people can run virtually or they can run on the 30th at Haynes Point from eight to 11. I will be there on that Saturday. And so we just want to pay homage to the co-ops, to the work that CDF is doing in the cooperative space, but we also want to center on the fact that we can all do well to do good, and Chuck never missed it. And he would’ve definitely been this year but I think this year we’re going to have a great deal of his spirit there and greatmemories. And I don’t think Chuck would do it any other way. He may not want to make it as much about him as we have, in regards to what his favorite saying was, but I think it’s going to be a great turnout.

It’s going to be a great opportunity for us to fundraise and celebrate the life of a great cooperator, but also provide many cooperative enterprises with some much needed philanthropic and grant help throughthe work of CDF.

VERNON OAKES: So I assume you were talking about Rich [indistinct] when you saidpresident of CDF?

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Oh yes. He called me and left me a voice message and I thought he had called the wrong number but called me and asked me would I take that seat and it just swelled my heart. My heart swelled up but I’ve been working as hard as I can, because I have big shoes to fill, but I also wanted to be able to bring my own stamp and my own level of expertise to that board and it’s definitely been a great experience thus far. And hello to all of my fellow Cooperative Development Foundation board members. Vernon, as long as they don’t make me emcee the dinner again, I think I’ll remain a board member because that was not —

VERNON OAKES: Well if they need an emcee I’d love to emcee so I’ll do that for you. I’ll do that.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: I will put the shout across the [indistinct].

VERNON OAKES: But I also joined their food co-op in Fredericksburg and went down and had a great lunch. They have a great food co-op down there, and would like to see Anthony Cook over at Georgetown Law, is creating a clinic and his goal is to have five food co-ops in the district, and we could use them in ward seven and ward eight. We have some deserts or food desert — I heard somebody call them food apartheids, so there’s all kinds of terms to say people cannot get nutritional foods at a decent price. So yeah, so buddy we don’t have a whole lot more time here. But back to the South and we are looking at for the UN decade, there’s three things that are basically needed to start co-ops and that’s training, the fifth principle of co-ops.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: Yes sir.

VERNON OAKES: Technical support, that’s part of training also, and also money. And that’s what you’re bringing, is that part of the money and also you know how important training is in technical support. We only have another minute to go, so tell people either around that three things or what you want to leave people with today out of this show.

JOHN HOLDSCLAW IV: You know, what I want to do is I want to leave people with this. It’s going to be [indistinct] related but I also want it to be co-op related. I mean, listen obviously cooperatives became an idea, then they became a movement and now in a lot of ways cooperatives are an industry and I think just like the CDFI world, I really want to see, and I think you’re seeing this with a lot of the millennials and Zoomers, I want to see cooperatives go back to that movement phase and I hope we get there and I want to be a part of that.

VERNON OAKES: Let’s move, bro. thank you very much everybody out there. Let’s get moving to help your communities. We’ll be back Next Thursday.